The Art of Vulnerability and Connection with Mae Martin (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Mae Martin:
The idea is the most important thing, and then the laughs come. I often have an idea I wanna convey or a, a moment for my life that I'm remembering, and then I, I just have to like trust that the adrenaline will result in some kind of punchline and just start talking about it.

[00:18:60] Adam Grant:
Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to ReThinking my podcast on the science of what makes us tick with the TED Audio Collective. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

My guest today is Mae Martin, comedian, actor and screenwriter. Mae's 2023 Netflix special, SAP was a finalist for Canadian Comedy album of the year. Along with making me laugh, it made me think differently about identity and relationships. Mae is also an improv master having performed for years at Second City.

[00:55:30] Mae Martin:
I know it's, it's weird 'cause it's such a me, me, me thing. But if you can not think of it like that and really connect with the audience and think this is for them and, uh. Not really about me and I'm having fun and then, then that's when you get to this magical flow state.

[01:15:70] Adam Grant:
Mae co-hosts the podcast Handsome, co-wrote and starred in the comedy series, Feel Good, and had a major role in The Flight Attendant on HBO Max. Today we're skipping the small talk and getting right into the art of connection and how a little vulnerability often goes a long way.

[01:36:40] Adam Grant:
Hey, Mae.

[01:37:20] Mae Martin:
Hey Adam.

[01:38:20] Adam Grant:
I just thought it'd be fascinating to get in your head a little bit and learn from how you think and what you can get some of the rest of us to rethink.

[01:45:30] Mae Martin:
Oh, great. Yeah. I feel like I could learn from you as well. I'll take some piece of wisdom away. I think.

[01:50:20] Adam Grant:
I think wisdom's a high bar, but maybe an inkling is, is reasonable.

[01:54:90] Mae Martin:
It's like therapy or something like when you're asked about yourself and talking about yourself, do you find yourself saying things that you weren't aware that you thought?

[02:02:00] Adam Grant:
There's a psychologist, Jamie Pennebaker, who calls that the joy of talking and

[02:06:70] Mae Martin:
Yes.

[02:07:30] Adam Grant:
I love this line where he said, most of us find that communicating our thoughts is a supremely enjoyable learning experience.

[02:14:90] Mae Martin:
That's great. Yeah, and I do a lot of improv, which is like the geekiest art form of all, and I stopped doing it for a while. I started doing improv comedy in my teens, and then, I don't know, I got too earnest and kind of up my own, but, and so I, I stopped doing it for a long time. I think I got inhibited.

And then recently, in the past five years. I've been doing a lot of improv and I find it very zen. You get into a kind of flow state and even vocabulary I didn't even know I had is just coming outta my mouth. It's really difficult to try and be intellectual or you're accessing like a different part of you. So maybe it's a similar thing.

[02:49:80] Adam Grant:
I think my favorite part of your Netflix special was the snow globe.

[02:49:80] Mae Martin:
We're little like experience hunters collecting these to put them on our brain shelves and be like, I'm me. I like, and I always visualize, every experience that we collect is like a little novelty, snow globe, you know?

And we're just going around being like, like one time I saw Antonio Banderas at the airport. Yes I did and myself, and no one else is me. All human interaction is just basically taking turns showing each other our snow globes and being like, I'm I, and like someone will be showing you their snow globe, you know, and, and you're trying to be a good listener.

It's like a story about a party they went to five years ago and you're like, yes. And you're like, and you are you as well. But the whole time your eyes are just darting to your own shelf. No. And yes, waiting for your moment to be like, and me as well. I have one.

[03:43:00] Adam Grant:
It was hilarious, but it was also profound. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a conversation with someone and I'm like, wait, this person is trying to show me their snow globe, and it's changed my approach to the interaction completely in ways that you could probably anticipate. But how did you land at that? Like tell me the backstory.

[04:01:30] Mae Martin:
When I'm writing standup, I start by improvising on stage, I'll have like a vague idea, and I remember having some idea about when you start in school, everybody asks what's your favorite color and what's your favorite animal?

And, and how, how grateful you are to grasp onto something concrete about yourself. You're like, my favorite animal is a penguin and my favorite color's purple, and I know myself and that's me. And I'm, I know who I am. And then coming outta the pandemic, I was noticing how insane small talk is and, and how awkward we all were trying to reconnect with people after that period and then trying to, to listen more and not just be thinking of my response while someone else is talking or, or just waiting for my moment to get in there and tell my anecdote. Because I really noticed, I, I mean especially dating, like when I was single and going on a lot of first dates, it's like, oh my God, there are some people just with a script and, and who don't ask a single question about you.

And then I started saying like, I. In on dates. I, I would say, do you have any questions for me? Like, because I was doing all the heavy lifting,

[05:02:70] Adam Grant:
It does make me think that a lot of adults are just living their lives as if they're in kindergarten show and tell.

[05:08:40] Mae Martin:
Yeah. Collecting experiences like, and, and not really being present for them.

You know, like I, I saw Elton John performing and I'd say 85% of people were watching him through their phones, filming it, and it just felt like, oh, you're just collecting your little nugget that you can show and I get existential about being present and that kind of thing.

[05:29:40] Adam Grant:
I, I was actually just reading this research on what people do when they write dating profiles, where it turns out that most people just try to express themselves, but other people were much more attracted to the person who showed an interest in understanding them.

A standard profile line was, I'm looking for someone who will always have my back, but people wanted to date the person who wrote, and I will always have your back.

[05:54:20] Mae Martin:
Yes, that's totally, of course that's more attractive. Yeah.

[05:58:40] Adam Grant:
But why don't we realize this? Of course, we want someone who's interested more than interesting.

Of course. We want someone who's gonna understand us, not just wants to be understood, and yet we fail to use that knowledge, not just in dating, but in everyday interaction.

[06:13:90] Mae Martin:
I'm living with a, a five-year-old a lot of the time now, which is a really new experience for me. Like half the time I've got this five-year-old roommate who is my girlfriend's daughter, and it's amazing.

It really does unlock a sort of pockets of curiosity and like it because it, it just can't be about you anymore. If we could practice the, the same sort of empathy and curiosity that we show toddlers with, with each other. I think that would be good.

[06:13:90] Adam Grant:
I like that idea and it, it speaks to something that I've been grappling with around this whole idea of, on the one hand, we want people to express themselves.

On the other hand, there's a fine line between self-expression and what sociologists call conversational narcissism, where like, you're telling me something really important and personal and maybe you just went through a terrible experience of loss and you're describing your grief. And I'm like, yeah, I totally know how you feel. My cat threw up yesterday. It was really hard.

[07:13:70] Mae Martin:
Yes, exactly. And that happens so much. We're, we're really bad at listening a lot of the time.

[07:19:30] Adam Grant:
Do you have, do you have an antidote to that problem?

[07:22:40] Mae Martin:
I mean, my job is conversational narcissism 'cause I'm standing doing a soliloquy on stage with no one to challenge my opinion. I'm just holding a microphone and talking. So, but no, in, luckily, I think in my, in my personal life, I've always had enough self-loathing that I overcompensate by just sort of asking people questions and being interested in them.

[07:45:20] Adam Grant:
You mentioned just noticing all the struggles people are having with small talk. Full disclosure. I've always hated small talk.

[07:50:90] Mae Martin:
Oh, it's the worst.

[07:51:80] Adam Grant:
And it feels like such a waste of time to me. I'm like, I wanna, I want to go right to a deep conversation when I meet someone and get to know them and learn something and like have, have an aha moment. Yeah. But a lot of people cannot handle that. At all.

[08:05:40] Mae Martin:
I know. Or they make a comment about it. They're like, whoa, we're, we're, we're getting deep fast. And you're like, yeah, we're gonna be bed soon. What? We gotta get to the bottom of things. Like, is time linear, do you think like, I wanna know what's your trauma? I know I want it all. Yeah.

[08:19:20] Adam Grant:
I don't know that I want the trauma, but I want everything else.

[08:21:60] Mae Martin:
Oh, okay. Okay.

[08:22:40] Adam Grant:
Even just the what do you do, question. I wanna ask, what do you love to do?

[08:26:20] Mae Martin:
Yeah.

[08:26:60] Adam Grant:
And then like, hear about your passions and, and soak those up. And I, I find it so strange that people think that's uncomfortable. Like, why would you not wanna share things that you care about?

[08:37:10] Mae Martin:
I want the trauma too, and it doesn't make me uncomfortable.

I'm okay with trauma dumping 'cause it's like, I feel like a lot of that stuff is right under the surface with people anyway. It's like skin deep just bubbling up in their eyeballs. So let's get it outta the way and then we can, and then we can move forward. I think people just wanna be heard, though. I don't think they need help.

I find it so annoying when people are immediately offering solutions when you're like, no, no, no, I've trust me. I've thought of that. And it's just, yeah.

[09:05:40] Adam Grant:
Well, this is a difference between us, Mae Martin, because I would never tell you a problem unless I wanted you to help me solve it. I cannot imagine wanting sympathy instead of a solution.

[09:15:30] Mae Martin:
I don't think it's sympathy. It's like an understanding of who the other person is. I think that's at the root of a lot of what I do is like, I want to be understood and seen for who I really am. It's just like, I wanna know about people's childhoods. I wanna know who are you closer to? Your mom or your dad.

Like, I want all that. And so the heavy stuff bubbles up and I'm like, I'm, I'm up for it.

[09:36:00] Adam Grant:
I, I do think it's really fun to hear about people's defining moments and the childhood experiences that shaped them.

[09:41:90] Mae Martin:
Yes. Defining moments.

[09:42:70] Adam Grant:
Yeah. Tell me about the defining moment that led you to say, yes, I want to be a comedian.

[09:47:70] Mae Martin:
It's funny because I'm constantly narrative-izing my own life and childhood. I'm, I'm always pinpointing these defining moments and then sometimes I wonder, were those defining moments or am I just picking them? 'Cause they fit neatly in the narrative. But I think. A big one was when I was 11, being taken to a standup club and we sat in the front row.

I begged to go. I think I, I already wanted to do comedy. I was like pretty fascinated by it. And then I, I was in the front row and the, the headliner got me up on stage 'cause it was weird there was a child in the audience and it was like a really raunchy club you could still smoke inside in these days.

It was like a smoky basement comedy club that I was in the front row in a little like waistcoat and suit. And so the headliner brought me up on stage and made me be his ventriloquist dummy, like he was squeezing the back of my neck and he thought I was a little boy and he got me to say all these filthy things and people were really laughing.

And then I think I got a few laughs and I just, my godmother who'd taken me was so worried that I was traumatized by the experience, but I was like completely addicted. And like on cloud nine, I started taking improv classes when I was 13 and that was really just amazing to find a group of weird kids like me and kind of extroverts and, and just to be messing around every Friday with them. I felt like I found my, my crew and it was euphoric.

[11:09:70] Adam Grant:
I think one of the things that's unusual about you, at least in in my, you know, outsider observations of comedians, is that you excel at both standup and improv.

[11:20:20] Mae Martin:
Oh, thank.

[11:20:90] Adam Grant:
I feel like most of the comedians I admire are good at one and they struggle with the other.

[11:25:50] Mae Martin:
In my twenties, I was the most standup I've ever been. Like I was four or five nights a week in like the big mainstream clubs in London and trying to do multiple shows a night, but that's not really my essence. So I think my first love was definitely doing characters and improv and, and writing and, and acting.

[11:42:60] Adam Grant:
Standup feels like it, it involves two skills. One is writing. The other is performing like, like an actor would with a script.

[11:51:10] Mae Martin:
Yeah.

[11:51:60] Adam Grant:
And in order to be great at standup, you have to do both of those things really well.

[11:55:90] Mae Martin:

Yeah.

[11:56:60] Adam Grant:
And improv requires neither of those things. As far as I can tell. There's no script.

Um, you don't have to write a thing and you're not figuring out how to make something that's already been dreamed up, feel fresh and new, and live in the moment you actually are live in the moment. And so the rehearsal versus spontaneity, the performing versus sort of just being in the moment, it feels like a really different set of skills and maybe even in an opposite set of skills in certain ways.

[12:26:10] Mae Martin:
I feel like there's more crossover than you'd think because you can really tell when someone is just doing a rote performance that is super polished with standup, I think you do really have to also be in the moment, and when you're taping a special less so, but like doing a live show, you've gotta be responding to the ebbs and flows of energy in the room and kind of present in the moment so that people feel like it's a special thing to them.

With improv, you're kind of writing on your feet, or at least you're just writing at rapid speed. You're just trying to tap into the part of your brain that is so familiar with the rhythms of storytelling and character. We have all these things in us, so you're just tapping into these really innate storytelling muscles and knowing, okay, now we need a conflict and now we're gonna resolve it, and things like that. And I, I do a lot of improvised standup, which blends the two. So that's like pulling questions from a bucket and then riffing on those. You're lucky if you get one punchline, but you're, you're tapping into like a clownier element and sort of what was funny about you as a kid.

Like you have to, you have to be a little sillier and, and I like that.

[13:34:80] Adam Grant:
I do too. I have a couple hats I wear where I try to incorporate humor as much as I can, and I, I always want the idea to lead and the laugh to be part of the supporting cast. But I guess it, it first started when I was performing as a magician, as a kid.

[13:50:30] Mae Martin:
Oh my god. How do I would give anything to go back in time and see that.

[13:55:50] Adam Grant:
Oh, you wouldn't actually, but like every once in a while there'd be a heckler in the audience. Or like a trick would go horribly wrong and the only thing I could do was to make light of it.

[14:05:90] Mae Martin:
Yeah.

[14:06:40] Adam Grant:
And. I think just loving comedy growing up and realizing, wait, if I can create that experience for other people that I've enjoyed, they're going to be less bored by the content that I wanna cover.

And so I discovered pretty quickly when I was teaching that I got most of my laughs in spontaneous back and forth with students.

[14:25:20] Mae Martin:
Yes.

[14:25:70] Adam Grant:
Like if I, if I tried to script a joke, it fell flat. Um, but there was something about like reading the moment and, you know, sort of then making like an unexpected remark and then making my fun of myself if it fell flat, that, that worked really well.

[14:38:30] Mae Martin:
Maybe you and I both have that self-deprecation superpower where you can get laughs by making fun of yourself. I think that's really is a superpower 'cause you can't really fail then.

[14:47:00] Adam Grant:
I guess unless you're self-deprecating humor falls flat and then you're–

[14:51:70] Mae Martin:
Yeah.

[14:52:90] Adam Grant:
That's a double fail. I'm even worse at this than I thought I was.

[14:56:80] Mae Martin:
Yeah.

[14:57:30] Adam Grant:
What is it about being live that makes it easier to be funny? You said adrenaline, I think is one thing that stands out. Another thing is, uh, you said getting out of your head, so you're less likely to maybe self criticize as you're creating, and that frees you up. What else happens, like when you have an audience?

[15:16:40] Mae Martin:
There's no shortcut around just bombing a lot in the beginning and putting in the stage time, like any skill that in the beginning there's a huge gap between your taste and your ability, and you're like, why am I not as good as these people I admire?

So. I think it's on only in the past, kind of, I don't know, five or six years really, that I've felt super confident. One of my pet peeves is when comedians come off stage and blame the audience massively for their failure. Sure, there, there are bad audiences or they're wasted, or they're politically sketchy audiences or something like that, or they're heckling, but that's pretty rare.

It's your job to make to make them laugh and, and whatever you thought was gonna be funny was not as funny as you thought it was gonna be. And I hate when comedians tell the audience, no, that's funny. You're wrong. And it happens so much. No, I know that's funny and you're wrong.

[16:09:40] Adam Grant:
But what, what about when the last 19 audiences thought it was funny and then this one didn't laugh?

[16:14:10] Mae Martin:
That's true. Yeah. That might be the rare occasion, but then maybe there was some minute facial expression that you did differently or you were dead behind the eyes. You've done it 19 times. You were resting on your laurels.

[16:18:60] Adam Grant:
I, I like that. So you have to start by asking, did I earn the laugh?

[16:27:40] Mae Martin:
Yeah. Yeah. I think so.

[16:29:50] Adam Grant:
Now one of the other things that jumps out to me that's different about the live audience is you have something to react to. And I think responsive humor is easier than like initiating.

[16:40:70] Mae Martin:
Yeah.

[16:41:30] Adam Grant:
At, at some level, I guess it feels like the comedy version of you're picking up on somebody else's last paragraph when you're writing.

[16:48:30] Mae Martin:
Yeah.

[16:48:50] Adam Grant:
Versus you're staring at a blank screen.

[16:50:20] Mae Martin:
Yes. Yeah, for sure. Not to keep bringing it back to this five-year-old that I live with, but in general with kids, I've always loved kids and playing like imaginary games and, and really I feel like that's what improv is, being uninhibited enough to really commit.

Like I remember when I was 11 or 12 playing games at recess and stuff that I was so in, like I was giving Oscar winning performances and I was really present and we were acting out these bizarre kind of like games of house where I was the teenage brother and there was like a mom and a dad, and it was, it's just being silly like that and, and really, and, and listening to the other person, and, and maybe to my detriment, I, I am less worried about being funny and more worried about responding authentically.

Like if someone comes in and is like, you know, my dog's on fire. It's like. How would you actually respond to that? It's responding earnestly to that situation. I think that's funnier almost than just trying to think of the next gag. It's the same as the snow globe thing. Like instead of thinking, oh, what am I gonna say next?

It's like, what did that person just say to you? And, and same with acting, I think is listening and, and responding.

[17:56:40] Adam Grant:
You're, I guess the vision I have is you interact with people in a way that's more lighthearted.

[18:02:80] Mae Martin:
Yeah. And yes, and that's the big rule of improv is Yes. And so whatever offer you're receiving is you're going to accept it and build on it, shutting it down, or just throwing a different offer back. If someone comes into a scene and is like, thank you for flying American Airlines. I'm your pilot and you're not gonna be like, no, you're not. You're my dad and I'm on a bus. Like, you know, people are coming to any interaction with a, with a lot to offer. So it's, it's always gonna go more smoothly if you're receiving it and building on it instead of trying to crowbar in your own agenda.

[18:42:80] Adam Grant:
Well that is a perfect segway to the lightning round.

[18:45:30] Mae Martin:
Oh, great. I love a lightning round.

[18:47:40] Adam Grant:
What is your favorite improv game?

[18:49:40] Mae Martin:
I don't really play games. I do scenes.

[18:51:70] Adam Grant:
You just no but-ed my question.

[18:53:90] Mae Martin:
I know, I know. I know I can. I can't actually think of a game.

[18:57:60] Adam Grant:
Well, okay. I'll tell you the reason I wanted to go that question first is.

I, I used to go to a lot of improv shows in college and different troupes had different go-to games, and my favorite one was called, Should Have Said, do you know this one?

[19:08:90] Mae Martin:
Oh, yeah. I love Should Have Said.

[19:10:40] Adam Grant:
It breaks your first rule of improv though, doesn't it? Like the, the person makes a statement and then you can just say, nope.

Should have said, and then they have to reboot.

[19:19:40] Mae Martin:
Yeah, that's true.

[19:20:40] Adam Grant:
What is it about, Should Have Said that works so well? I've, I've always wondered.

[19:23:90] Mae Martin:
Hmm. Maybe it's just that we all wish we had that in life. A sort of rewind button and you can have another chance at everything.

[19:31:60] Adam Grant:
There's a part of me that really enjoyed watching the, the person who then had to like to go back to the drawing board multiple times squirm, yes. Yeah. To try to come up with something better.

[19:41:90] Mae Martin:
There is also a fun, sadistic form of improv where you're trying to make the other people in the scene sweat, which is also fun. Yeah.

[19:50:30] Adam Grant:
What is the worst advice you've ever gotten?

[19:53:30] Mae Martin:
Never go to bed angry. With your partner 'cause sometimes you gotta sleep and sometimes you, you're not gonna resolve it.

You need a break. Sometimes you wake up and you're like, I don't know what all that was about. Nevermind.

[20:06:40] Adam Grant:
And yeah, sometimes you don't have the skills or the energy or the focus or the perspective or anything you need. What is something you've rethought lately?

[20:17:10] Mae Martin:
Procrastination. I have so much shame about it, and I've just started to accept that whatever I'm doing when I'm not doing the thing is maybe preparing me to do the thing.

So even if I do the thing right before it's due, I, I'm, I can't get into a shame spiral about it.

[20:34:00] Adam Grant:
Who is a comedian that you've become a huge fan of that we may not have heard of yet?

[20:39:50] Mae Martin:
I just watched Jacqueline Novak's special, Get on Your Knees. So it's fresh in my head and it's poetry and it's all about blow jobs, so you don't expect it to be profound and moving.

And it kind of blew my mind. It made me feel like a very lazy writer. The way she uses language, it's on Netflix.

[20:56:50] Adam Grant:
Wow. That was not the answer I was expecting. And did you have a favorite comedian as a kid?

[21:01:70] Mae Martin:
I loved Eddie Izzard. I loved Tig Notaro, Sarah Silverman, Maria Bamford, Steve Martin, Kids in the Hall. Some British people like French and Saunders, and kind of British troupes and things. But–

[21:16:60] Adam Grant:
What's a question you have for me?

[21:18:30] Mae Martin:
What's your morning routine?

[21:22:40] Adam Grant:
I'm allergic to morning routines.

[21:24:30] Mae Martin:
Oh, really? So you're just freestyling every day?

[21:27:80] Adam Grant:
Every day. It's honestly the only thing that brings out a little creativity in me. I'm so linear. Like if I, if I have a plan, I will stick exactly to it. And so I feel like I need to be constantly shaking up my routine to have like fresh ideas and new ways of thinking.

[21:45:00] Mae Martin:
You're eating different breakfasts, you're waking up at different times.

[21:47:50] Adam Grant:
Oh. I wouldn’t go that far. No–

[21:49:00] Mae Martin:
Oh, what,

[21:50:90] Adam Grant:
Like the timing changes every day and there's not a, like a fixed sequence of events other than we get our kids off to school and then yeah.

[21:58:50] Mae Martin:
Yeah.

[21:58:90] Adam Grant:
Start working. And I work out at some point, but otherwise, I might start with email one morning to try to get warmed up a little bit.

Another morning I might start writing and dive right into like some deep thinking. Some days I'll be analyzing data like it's all over the map.

[22:13:50] Mae Martin:
One more question. With kids, how do you carve out this time to, to tap back into your kind of egoic creative self and stop your brain from being constantly in kid world?

[22:28:40] Adam Grant:
It was much harder when our kids were really little and I felt like I should always be with them.

[22:33:50] Mae Martin:
Yeah.

[22:34:00] Adam Grant:
And there's always something fun to do. And once they were old enough to go to school, I felt like, okay, this is the window to work between when they leave for school and when they come home.

[22:45:40] Mae Martin:
Yes.

[22:45:80] Adam Grant:
And if I haven't made the most of that, then I'm gonna be a worse dad and I'm gonna regret the way that I spent my day.

And then I'm also gonna end up playing catch up at night after they go to bed.

[22:56:40] Mae Martin:
Yes, totally. Okay.

[22:57:30] Adam Grant:
And I don't wanna be that person, so I, I've actually found it easier.

[23:01:30] Mae Martin:
Right.

[23:01:80] Adam Grant:
Even, even though I have less, less time net, I use my time much better.

[23:06:00] Mae Martin:
Yeah. Okay. That's good to hear.

[23:07:90] Adam Grant:
It sounds like you're not having that experience right now.

[23:11:60] Mae Martin:
I'm lucky when I'm on stage, I have to be present, but it's just, I, I'm in the like honeymoon phase of finding it so, so riveting and fun, and I just wanna be like spending the day building like a fort or some cool thing, you know?

[23:25:90] Adam Grant:
I can totally relate to that. So, okay. Lightning round, be gone. I wanna pick up on your shame about procrastination and full disclosure.

I published research on procrastination. It was one of the themes of my first TED Talk. Talk to me more about like your procrastination habits, why you find them shameful, and how you're managing it.

[23:45:40] Mae Martin:
I got diagnosed with ADHD like a couple years ago and I still, I grew up in the era where there was a real stigma of like, is it even real?

Is it bad parenting? I don't know. So I don't even mention it really, but I've always really struggled with time management and I've always left things to the last minute and I, and I need that kind of adrenaline push to, to complete it, but I don't know, like the other day I was really beating myself up about, I, I don't organize my drawers.

Like all my clothes are kind of jumbled up and not folded and, and my socks, and then I was like, I mean, you're 36 maybe if you remove the shame about, it's been my whole life. I've been like this, you know, I'm getting the big things done. I get everything done that I need to do, and, and I drop the ball on little things, and rather than focusing on the failures, you gotta just recognize that life is hard. We're all overstimulated. I mean, especially, I have a lot of experience with addiction not to get heavy, but in my, um, teens and stuff. And I, I feel like I have sort of addict tendencies and shame is the worst, the most useless and counterproductive thing.

If you shame spiral about every time you mess up, then you just sort of. Your self-worth is so eroded that you, you don't care about anything.

[24:59:00] Adam Grant:
But every procrast, everyone procrastinates on something and like the mistake that a lot of people make is they think they're being lazy and that's when they start to beat themselves up and, and feel shame.

And yet then if you look at all the things you do while you're procrastinating, a lot of them involve effort and hard work. Like, wait a minute. This is not laziness. We did a podcast a few years ago on why people procrastinate and Fuschia Sirois, this great psychologist in the UK who shows that we procrastinate because we're avoiding negative emotions, that there's an unpleasant feeling that a task brings to mind.

For me, it's usually boredom.

[25:31:70] Mae Martin:
Yeah.

[25:31:90] Adam Grant:
Like, I don't want to do that thing that's gonna be repetitive and dull. Or, for a lot of people it's fear like, I don't know if I can do this. It's really hard. Or it might be, you know, confusion or frustration. I'm stuck and so I just, I can't do this right now. I think the, the antidote to that is supposed to be once you've pinpointed the unpleasant emotions that drive your procrastination, you can change them.

Like I've figured out how to make some of my boring tasks a little bit more entertaining. We all have thought partners who help us get unstuck, but I think the, the other interesting thing that comes out, and this is the work that Fuschia and I did, is we did some experiments where we tempted people to procrastinate by making funny YouTube avail, uh, videos available.

You're on a screen, you're supposed to be generating, um, creative business ideas. And then like you see, we have a bunch of Jimmy Kimmel's mean tweets over on the side of the screen and people who were attempted to procrastinate for a few minutes actually came up with more creative ideas afterward.

[26:29:00] Mae Martin:
Yeah. Yeah.

[26:30:00] Adam Grant:
Which was kind of cool.

[26:31:20] Mae Martin:
That's, I love that. That's so interesting. And, and I'm have, I'm experiencing that in the writer's room. I've never run a writer's room before. I always have written by myself or with like one friend. And so this is the first time I've done a classic writer's room and there's like nine writers, and I'm supposed to be some kind of leader.

I was beating myself up because I was. I really care about breaks and I was at every lunch. I'm making everybody go and play hacky sack with me and this, this is a real mix of people who are, have not played hacky sack, but it, I find it makes the afternoon a lot more productive if people feel free to get up and go get a snack.

And it, it really is.

[27:07:40] Adam Grant:
Procrastinating only works in terms of fuel and creativity. If you're intrinsically motivated by the problem, if you hate the thing you're trying to solve, then you just avoid it. Yeah. Whereas if you're interested in it. When you put it off, it stays active in the back of your mind and you get the benefit of the incubation.

You start to reframe it. Whereas if you don't like it, like screw that. I am not thinking about you today.

[27:29:60] Mae Martin:
I love the, that phrase, the benefit of the incubation. Sometimes if I have something creative to do, like a script, I have to do everything else in the day. Like I have to do my laundry, I have to clean the thing, I have to do a bunch of chores, I gotta play my guitar. And then finally it's like 9:00 PM and my brain is clear and I've been thinking about the thing all day, and so it has been percolating and incubating and then, then I'm ready to do it.

[27:53:40] Adam Grant:
Only moderate procrastination was helpful for creativity. If you waited until the very last minute. It seemed like people had to rush ahead with their easiest idea as opposed to really fleshing out their best idea. The lesson for me on that was, if you're gonna procrastinate, give yourself a lot of lead time.

[28:11:20] Mae Martin:
Yeah, I like that. That's true.

[28:13:20] Adam Grant:
So let's talk a little bit about shame. I. I just read this week some brand new research.

This is Landers and colleagues 'cause I know you were curious, you were about to ask me for the site, right? I can, I can see it.

[28:23:50] Mae Martin:
Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[28:25:60] Adam Grant:
It's, uh, it's research both in the US and, and in India asking like, why do people feel shame in the first place? It seems like such a dysfunctional emotion, but we think that every emotion evolved to serve a purpose, and what they find is that shame.

The, the intended purpose is it's supposed to protect you from reputational damage.

[28:47:10] Mae Martin:
Mm. I love that.

[28:49:30] Adam Grant:
And the things that you feel shame about are things that would make you look bad in the eyes of others, and that's supposed to grab your attention and say, hey, Mae, don't do that. Yeah. Like, other people are gonna think you're terrible if you do that.

And I, I think where, where this falls apart clearly is we feel shame about things that are not reputationally relevant. Like no one cares if your closet or your dresser is disorganized.

[29:13:10] Mae Martin:
Yeah, but that's where we have our, our, our parents' voices in our head, and I think it, that's where parenting is pretty crucial because that's where you're learning everything in those early years.

And so that's where you learn what to be ashamed of. I think.

[29:26:90] Adam Grant:
It sounds like then one of your ways of managing that is to interrogate, like how, how did I come to believe that this was a shameful behavior? And this is not in the category of big things that actually affect my reputation. No one else cares about this, so I'm not gonna care about it either.

[29:43:90] Mae Martin:
And fear is no good as well. I used to put my lunch in my locker and then leave it there. Forget about it, it would smell and my locker would be like a nightmare. And I just was so ashamed of and afraid of people finding out that my locker was full of old lunches and it was just so paralyzing. And I think we can feel that in lots of ways in our lives.

What would happen eventually is someone would've to come and like my mom would come into school with me and like clear out my locker and everybody would see, and it was like horrific.

[30:18:30] Adam Grant:
So you're, you're still feeling the, like the old lunch locker shame.

[30:22:40] Mae Martin:
I, I don't know why that just came into my head. I haven't thought about that in years.

[30:26:00] Adam Grant:
That's fascinating. I've, I've never heard that kind of shame described before, but it makes a lot of sense. It's the internalization of somebody else's standards.

[30:34:30] Mae Martin:
Yes. Yeah.

[30:35:30] Adam Grant:
That's, that's such a nuisance in these situations because you never decided that being neat as opposed to messy was important to you.

You, you were raised to believe it was, and you're kind of stuck with it.

[30:49:00] Mae Martin:
Yeah, and also it's crazy how we internalize the negative and not the positive. Like there, what about all the positive reinforcement that I got from my parents and, and that we get from life and, but we, we just latch onto the negative.

Recently with my drawers, I've been thinking like, yeah, but what are all the good things that you do remember to do when thoughtful things I'm readjusting to living with someone that I'm dating and sharing a space, and we're a really similar level though of like untidy but not dirty in any way. Like we're very clean people, but it's mainly clothes

[31:21:20] Adam Grant:
That's, that’s actually a great distinction.

I'm gonna use that. When people ask me, like if I'm organized, I'm like, I am not tidy, but I'm definitely not dirty.

[31:29:40] Mae Martin:
Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[31:31:00] Adam Grant:
Looping back to improv. Somebody asked me a question, and I think it was about what would you be doing if you weren't a psychologist? And I offhand said, I would love to try improv comedy.

I think it would be so fun.

[31:42:80] Mae Martin:
Yes.

[31:42:80] Adam Grant:
I got a record number of emails afterward from people saying, you have to try improv. Take this improv class. And–

[31:49:80] Mae Martin:
Whoa.

[31:50:90] Adam Grant:
I'm really excited about the idea, but I haven't done it yet. And maybe in lieu of that, I was wondering if you could teach me a little improv.

[31:58:50] Mae Martin:
Last night I did an improvised half an hour TV pilot, and, and we, we used a book and we flipped through it and got the title and, and then we asked the audience for the genre and the location.

We had a director with a microphone who could pause and be like, we take you now to, you know, Brian's kitchen, but I cannot recommend it highly enough. Like I, I think you should do, oh my God. To do it with your family. With your kids. That would be hilarious.

[31:58:50] Adam Grant:
That's actually a great pitch 'cause thinking about like, I, I'm not gonna do it for me.

I'm like, of course I could be way better at a lot of things and this is the thing I would like to get better at, but like, I don't know that this is the thing I need to spend more time on right now. But if my kids are gonna have a blast, I'm all in.

[32:40:90] Mae Martin:
Yes, completely. How old are they?

[32:43:50] Adam Grant
Uh, they're 15, 13, and 10.

[32:45:80] Mae Martin:
Oh my God. You don't look old enough to have a 15-year-old.

[32:49:70] Adam Grant:
I'm pretending to be a real adult. Is it working?

[32:51:70] Mae Martin:
Yes. Oh my god. Congrats. No, no one's a real adult.

[32:56:60] Adam Grant:
I find that simultaneously terrifying and reassuring.

[33:00:60] Mae Martin:
Me too. Me too.

[33:02:60] Adam Grant:
I'm like, wait, we're in charge. Yeah, but also no one else really knows what they're doing either.

[33:08:20] Mae Martin:
I know, and then the, whenever I wonder why we as a society are just kind of driving off a cliff. I'm like, well, 'cause everyone's like me. Like we're all the same. We don't know what we're doing, any of us.

[33:24:80] Adam Grant:
The idea that stuck with me is Mae's lunch locker shame. We all have a version of it, something other people disapproved of when we were younger and still haunts us today even though it's irrelevant now. That's an opportunity for rethinking. What standards have you internalized that aren't actually yours?

It might be time to let them go.

ReThinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. This show is part of the TED Audio Collective, and this episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard.

Our producers are Hannah Kingsley-Ma and Aja Simpson. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hansdale Hsu and Allison Leyton-Brown.

Our team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob Winik, Samiah Adams, Michelle Quint, Banban Cheng, Julia Dickerson, and Whitney Pennington Rodgers.


[34:22:90] Mae Martin:
I hate the word playful. Seems so gross. For some reason, uh, people who use the word playful are never playful. Uh, but yeah.

[34:30:60] Adam Grant:
Wait, tell me, tell me more about that. What kinds of people are you interacting with who talk about being playful?

[34:37:40] Mae Martin:
I don't know, even improvisers who talk about improv sometimes. Right?

It's, it's very cringey 'cause they're like, I just wanna play, you know, let's play. And you're like, oh God, I hate that. I love this. And just adults talking about play is, it makes me think about like, I used to go to this theater. And watch plays when I was a kid and there was always an a grownup playing like a 10-year-old and it would being like, I'm playing, and it was just really embarrassing.

[35:04:50] Adam Grant:
I never thought about it that way before.