Julissa Arce on why success isn’t worth her assimilation (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Duffy:
You are listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. One of the trickiest parts about success and chasing success is that everyone has a different definition in their mind, and sometimes when we get the thing we've been striving for, we realize that it isn't actually what we want at all; it’s just a story that's been fed to us by someone else.

Today's guest, Julissa Arce is doing her best to redefine success for herself and to get the rest of us to do the same. Because Julissa has achieved several different visions of success and still has found them unsatisfying.

For example, by many people's definitions of it, Julissa has lived the American dream. She moved to the United States from Mexico as a kid to join her parents who had a business here, and then, when her visa expired, Julissa became undocumented. Despite that stress, she worked hard. She graduated college, and she got a high-paying job on Wall Street, but it didn't feel like success to her.

So, she left her job. She wrote a bestselling book. She became a US citizen, and still, there was something missing. In her latest book, You Sound Like a White Girl, Julissa explores the meaning and the cost of success, particularly when it comes to having to assimilate to achieve it.

[00:01:15] Julissa Arce:
To me, assimilation is this sort of absorbing of a different culture at the expense of your own, right? That you have to sort of become this other thing that you weren't really meant to be.

And so I've had sort of this journey of pursuing this idea of success in the American Dream at the place that I think most, uh, epitomizes, uh, American culture and capitalism, you know, being Wall Street to now, um, sort of being a writer and really exploring and rejecting this idea that in order to be successful, we have to assimilate. That in order to be successful, we have to be the whitest version of ourselves in order to be accepted, to find belonging, to find success.

[00:02:07] Chris Duffy:
We're gonna talk a lot more with Julissa about the problems of assimilation and what she thinks true success looks like right after this.

[BREAK]

[00:02:23] Chris Duffy:
Today we're talking about success, culture, and identity with Julissa Arce.

[00:02:28] Julissa Arce:
Hi, I'm Julissa Arce. I'm an author, a writer, and an activist.

[00:02:32] Chris Duffy:
Julissa, it’s been so interesting to read your books over the course of your career as a writer because it feels like one of the things that you explore both explicitly but also through the books is what it means to be successful and how that is a changing goal and in some ways a goal that is an illusion that you could ever fully reach.

[00:02:55] Julissa Arce:
Yeah, I think that I had a very specific definition of what it meant to be successful. And a lot of that definition comes from, you know, my upbringing being an immigrant, my parents coming to the US and sort of really instilling in me this idea that success meant financial success and that that was the only way to be successful.

And over time, as I have shaped my own idea of success, that has changed. You know, I don't think that success always means money because I think you can be a very rich person and still not be successful in life because I think that it takes a lot more than money to be successful now.

[00:03:37] Chris Duffy:
The reason I wanted to start by asking about success is because, you know, your book is the case for rejecting assimilation. The title, You Sound Like a White Girl, comes from a, a real thing that happened to you when you were a kid.

[00:03:47] Julissa Arce:
Yeah. When I was in high school, I had a crush on this boy, and we were on the phone and he said to me, “You sound like a white girl.” And in that moment, I sort of took it as a compliment. I was like, “Oh my God, I sound like a white girl.”
Like finally, you know? Because I had spent such a long time trying to get rid of my accent, trying to speak English in a very specific way that when he said that to me, I, I, I thought it was a good thing. And of course, over time I've come to realize and recognize that this idea of sounding like a white girl, it really is just meant to keep me in my place.

People from my own community and other communities of color, we sort of use this, this phrase, “You sound like a white girl”, as a way to also reject people from our community as still saying like, “You’re not Mexican enough” or “You're not Latino enough. No, you've sold out. You sound like a white girl.” So, this phrase just has so many different meanings to me and so many ways in which people use it as a negative thing, and it, it always makes me laugh a little that at some point in my life, I thought it was a good thing.

[00:04:53] Chris Duffy:
There's also this really kind of heartbreaking moment in the book where you're looking in the mirror and you're trying to, like, practice being someone who you're not, right? The fully assimilated White American version of yourself.

[00:05:06] Julissa Arce:
Yeah, I, I, you know, when I was little, I would, I would stand in front of a mirror and, like, practice my English. I was sort of trying to, to sound, you know, like the white girls in my school. And looking back on it, I think how sad it is that there were no mirrors where I could see my reflection. Right? So like everything around me, whether it was the movies, the books, the history, there were so many things around me that never reflected back at me.

And so when I saw my own reflection, it wasn't a reflection that I, that I liked, and I wanted to change it. And the thing that I could change most easily was the way that I spoke, right?

Like, I couldn't necessarily change my skin color, I couldn't change my hair, I couldn't change my features, but the thing that I could change was my voice and I could make it sound differently and in, in that sound, hopefully find more confidence. Right? And I would see sort of like, just like all of these people that didn't look like me and I, and I would wanna be like them, you know? I just wanted to be like them.

[00:06:11] Chris Duffy:
I imagine many of the people listening to this right now are, are feeling some version of this, of that they, they don't quite fit in, that they're trying to live up to an ideal that is impossible, is not really meant for them, in fact is meant to keep them out. What would you say to someone who's listening and is, is struggling with this idea of assimilation, of and of not being able to live up to this impossible goal?

[00:06:34] Julissa Arce:
That we should give up that fight. We should give up that goal because it never satisfies. The way that I opened up the book is sort of with this story about a runner going around a track, and she's running around the track and she thinks she's almost done, and then there’s, like, a new race she has to run and she gets the best sneakers and the best coaches and the best everything.

And like, still she can't get to the finish line. And that's kind of how I view this undertaking of assimilation, which is just like a never-ending race because there's always more things that you have to do in order to be accepted. And when you do those things and, like, more things appear, and in my own experience, I have found that where I have found the biggest sense of belonging is in simply getting to know my own history, my own culture.

You know, reconnecting with my Spanish, reconnecting with my… Not that I ever lost that connection, but more so that I felt like that connection could only be expressed in certain places. You know, like I felt like I had to be a version of myself at home, with my family, with my friends, and a different version of myself when I was out in the world.

[00:07:46] Chris Duffy:
What are some of the steps? What are some practical things that people can do to move away from assimilation and into something that is successful and whole and fulfilling?

[00:07:58] Julissa Arce:
Well, for me, the number one thing that has really helped me to find that sense of belonging, to really feel rooted in this country is learning the history of my people in this country.

And it is a history that dates back to before this place was called the United States, and it is through that history that I have really learned just how much I belong here and that when people say, you know, “Go back to where you came from,” or like, “This is America, therefore you have to speak English.”

This is America. Therefore it's a white people's country. This is America. Therefore, insert whatever sort of trope there is out there. And actually, if you learn the history, none of those things are actually true. And I believed those things for a long time. You know, I, I really did. And so in the, the sort of the real history learning, the history that we're not taught in school is what has helped me the most. That’s, like, the number one thing that I have done and, and it's a gift I feel like I've given to myself.

[00:09:02] Chris Duffy:
There are many parts in the book, in You Sound Like a White Girl, where you talk about a history that I had never heard, and that is really incredible and powerful. I mean, one anecdote that really stood out is there's a story about these cheerleaders in a small town in Texas.

[00:09:19] Julissa Arce:
Yeah. It's, it's incredible. So there were these, in Crystal City, Texas, at Crystal City High School, there was a rule that only one of the four cheerleaders could be Mexican-American in a school that was 85% Mexican-American.

And there were these young girls. There were really 15, 16, 17-year-old girls who at some point sort of had enough, they said, “Why? Why should there only be one Mexican girl? Like the most, most of us are Mexican in this school? Why should there be any rule about, or any quotas for how many Mexican cheerleaders that can be?” And so they took their, you know, request to the principal.

That was one among other requests—to be allowed to speak Spanish in the hallways, to be able to learn Mexican-American history, to be able to have Mexican food be served in the cafeteria. So the cheerleading part was just one of the things that they were fighting for. They organized walkouts, and they organized their parents, and they took their demands to the principal and to the school board.

And their parents, some of the parents lost their jobs because they were employed by the white families in the town. It really sort of became a community-wide fight for this town to stand up for itself. And to me, that's just an incredible, not just an incredible story, but the impact that they made and the change that they made.

And in talking to some of the women now, I mean all of them are still alive and I've been so lucky and fortunate to, to speak to them, and it makes me quite sad that they question whether the change they made mattered, because so many people don't know their story. So many people aren't aware of how they changed this town, how they changed Texas politics.

You know, I grew up in Texas and I was well into my mid-thirties when I finally learned this story. And I think it's more stories like that, that more history like that, that we need to learn so that we can recognize, one, what our community has been through, and also what we've done about it, right? Because I think sometimes there is this sort of misconception that we haven't really been part of the fight, and that's wrong, it's incorrect.

[00:11:38] Chris Duffy:
I think that sometimes when people think about activism, there's kind of a cop-out where people think like, “Well, this issue is small, so why would it matter?” And you know, there's obviously, it's not. It's not a small issue, the, the issue with the cheerleaders and, and the quota, but to tackle something like that, that was kind of on a, on a smaller scale, right? One school, one issue, it led to a much broader change in this community. It led to representation on the school board. It led to city council. It led to kind of a movement. And, to me, one of the beautiful parts of that story is the idea that like, if you start where you are, the change can grow from that.

[00:12:17] Julissa Arce:
Yeah. And I think you're right that it's, it's, it might seem a small thing, but if, if you give it more context, you realize it's not a small thing, right?

So when I, when I tell the story in the book, I talk about what does it mean to play football in Texas. You know, especially in a small town. I mean, I'm sure lots of people have seen Friday Night Lights, the movie, right? And people have seen Friday Night Lights, the show, and if you grew up in Texas, you know that who plays football and who are the cheerleaders really matters.

It's really a signal of who is in charge, especially in the 1960s. It really was a really big indication of how things were changing in that town and how things were changing in Texas and it, it's still so relevant today, not so much like the quota thing, because of course we know now the rules wouldn't be so overtly racist, but there's always small ways in which people can find to sort of still control, still put people in their place, still keep us from our history, you know? I mean, you see what's happening in Florida with like the AP African-American studies, um, and it's all sort of related.

[00:13:27] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. There, it does seem like there's this real push right now, a conscious push that certainly has existed before, but maybe it was a little less overt. It was a little more under-underground, and now it's very much in the open to talk about what history is acceptable and what topics are acceptable to teach to kids. And I think you make such a compelling case that it's not just important as information. It's not just important as facts. It's also important because when you don't see yourself and you don't see your history, you're robbed of something. That is, that is actually taking something away.

[00:14:01] Julissa Arce:
Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:14:02] Chris Duffy:
When people talk about the American Dream, what do you think that they are imagining when they say a phrase like that?

[00:14:10] Julissa Arce:
I think it depends who's saying it. The people who still really believe in the American dream are immigrants, you know, that's why they continue to come. That's why we continue to, to leave our families, our land, our food, our heritage, our culture behind, and come to this country that often doesn't welcome us.

I think for my parents, as I mentioned, for them the American dream was really about financial success and financial stability and, you know, having money to, to, to buy these things, to buy a house, to buy a car, to send your kids to college. And I think for other people, you know, it still means that, it still means sort of like the house with the white picket fence and the family and, and I think that for other people, you know, the American dream is sort of, like, nonexistent anymore.

Like, they don't believe in it anymore because it doesn't happen that often anymore and it's so much more difficult to achieve that quintessential American dream of the fifties and sixties.

[00:15:10] Chris Duffy:
So what do you think the people who really do hold onto that idea, what do you think that it is that they're missing? Because I think that for many of the people who have that kind of like classic version of the American Dream, you, in some ways, have a life that was the embodiment of it. And so I think that when you then say, “Hey, here's the nuances that people are missing,” it, it carries so much weight because it's like, “Well, I, I did all the things and I achieved all the things, and it wasn't what you believe it is.”

[00:15:39] Julissa Arce:
Yeah.

[00:15:39] Chris Duffy:
So, so what is it that they're missing about that? .

[00:15:42] Julissa Arce:
Yeah. One of the frames behind me is, is the, the, the, the picture of like, when I first shared my story with Bloomberg Business Week, right? And the, and the, the headline is “How an Undocumented Immigrant went from Selling Funnel Cakes in Texas to Derivatives at Goldman Sachs.

And like, you look at this headline, right? And you're like, “Oh my God, this undocumented person, they went from selling funnel cakes and like now they're working at Goldman Sachs?” Like, what? The American Dream is like that. It's like a headline. But once you actually read the story, you know, once you actually open up the pages and look, you start to realize that sure, that's a nice headline, but let me tell you about how much this dream cost me, and then you can decide if that's a price you are willing to pay to achieve that dream. Or if maybe, you know, that price was too high a cost to pay to achieve the things that, that this person has achieved. Right?

I certainly feel that way many times, like damn, like I gave up so much, you know? I missed so much. I, it was so painful to go through it. And I don't take away from the fact that I, I do feel very proud of the things that I have been able to do and accomplish. And, you know, as I, as I say in the book, like, I am grateful to be in this country, and I am grateful for the opportunities that I've had, but that doesn't mean that I don't recognize how far and few between those opportunities are for people and that I don't recognize the amount of pain that I've had to endure in order to take advantage of those opportunities.

[00:17:28] Chris Duffy:
You know, there's a, there's a joke that I love, a Judd Apatow joke where he says, “Everyone always knows that money doesn't buy happiness, but everyone wants to find that out for themselves.”

[00:17:37] Julissa Arce:
Yeah. My own saying about happiness is that money doesn't buy happiness, but it does help. You know, I don't wanna give the wrong impression that like, that I sort of think, like, money doesn't matter. Like no, money absolutely matters. You know, money helps a lot.

[00:17:57] Chris Duffy:
We're gonna take a quick break because speaking of money, it is time for some ads, and we will be right back after this. Don't go anywhere.

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[00:18:12] Julissa Arce:
When I was about eight, I was playing in El Zócalo with some friends from school when an Indigenous girl approached us to sell candy. One of the light-skinned girls started taunting her, saying she smelled like caca. Another girl said 
“Qué fea prieta, déjanos en paz.” I looked very much like that Indigenous girl, except I was wearing a Catholic school uniform.

I joined in on the ridicule, telling the Indigenous girl, “Ni siquiera hablas bien español!” I hoped that in my insults, the other girls didn't recognize the indígena in me. I resemble mi abuelita Enedina, my dad's mom, who was Indigenous, but we didn't talk about that at home.

[00:18:56] Chris Duffy:
What you just heard was a clip from the audiobook of Julissa Arce’s “You Sound Like a White Girl.” That's from a section where Julissa is exploring how even in Mexico, she had experienced and participated in some deeply ingrained ideas about which cultures and which appearances were the most desirable. These ideas, they don't exist just in the United States or Europe. They've been exported worldwide, haven't they?

[00:19:18] Julissa Arce:
I say in the book that, like, whiteness is not something that exists only in America, right? Like everywhere you look, in India and in Korea and other places where creams lighten your skin are, like, very popular. You know? Different countries in Africa too, like colorism is like a big, it's a big thing, right? Where, like, lighter-skinned Black people or lighter-skinned Mexican people, like, are viewed as more beautiful, and it doesn't matter where we are in the world. This issue exists. It exists because of colonization.

And if you think about how much the world has been colonized, it's like, yeah, you know, Mexico's not colonized anymore. Like, India hasn't been under British rule in so long, right? But these ideas that were so deeply instilled in us continue to exist and continue to be harmful to our communities, you know?

In Mexican culture, very much so, we want to celebrate our European, our Spanish bloodline, our Spanish, our connection to, to Spanish people. And very often, you know, you hear things like, “This person is very beautiful because they're very light-skinned.” Or you hear this phrase “Cásate con un guerito para mejorar la raza,” which means, you know, marry someone white to better the race.

This idea comes from a time during the colonial period where there was a caste system and the only way that you could have a better life was literally to marry someone who was lighter-skinned than you. You couldn't move up the caste system otherwise, right? And so these ideas come from a very real place of survival and of trying to survive under this very oppressive times.

But we haven't yet recognized that, like, we're still living under that rule. In our minds and in our actions, we're still chained by these terrible ideas that really harm us. And so, you know, growing up, yeah, my mom would often talk about my grandma who was Indigenous. Um, like I have this curly hair, right? And I have this, like, curls in the back of my hair.

And my mom would just always, like, talk bad about them. You know? She'd be like, “Oh, put gel on those, on those curls. Like, you look like your grandma.” And then she would say it in a negative way. Like, the times when I looked more like my grandma, she'd say it as always a negative thing and I just think… Wow. Like I, I'm pregnant, and I'm having a daughter, and I'm just really grateful that my daughter will learn a different way. That even now in my womb, I talk to her about how beautiful it is to be us, how beautiful it is to be Mexican, to be of Indigenous roots, and how she will learn a different way and how she will have mirrors where she will see her reflection.

[00:22:15] Chris Duffy:
I'm, I'm glad that you brought that up ‘cause that's, that's one of the big questions that I had for you is thinking about your pregnancy and, and becoming a, a mother, how you are going to frame some of these issues for your daughter, knowing that you can't change the outside world a hundred percent. But you can change what happens inside your home.

[00:22:34] Julissa Arce:
For sure. I mean, I think, like I have a friend, her name is Patty Rodriguez, and when she had her first son, she was looking for bilingual books and couldn't really find any good bilingual books. Right? And so, she thought “I'm gonna write a bilingual book” and got rejected from every publisher and publishers told her things like “Latinos don't read to their kids.”

And she was like, “Okay, well then I'm gonna go start my own publishing company.” And she started Little Libros, and Little Libros is now this, like this huge company and publishes tons of amazing, beautiful, really good quality bilingual books. But I am glad that, like I do think that she will have things that I didn't have, you know, even just like brown Barbies, you know? How difficult it was to find them when I was growing up.

You know, there are now so many amazing young adult books that are written by Latinas with Latino characters. There are those history books that even if she doesn't, is not learning that history in school, like, I'll be able to share that history with her. Yeah. So I, I am really excited for, for her, and I'm excited for, for myself to, you know, to do things a little differently because, because I know more and I have more resources than, than my mom did.

And my mom did the best that she could. And, and she, I think did great. And, and you know, she only knew what she knew. But now I know different.

[00:23:59] Chris Duffy:
Building on that, how has changing your perspective on assimilation changed your relationship with your family and with your friends?

[00:24:07] Julissa Arce:
That's a really big question. Um, I constantly get into this little argument with my family in Mexico about how they need to stop being so racist, you know what I mean? So racist to each other, like, you know, calling our kind of like darker skin cousins, like terrible nicknames. And it's sort of been the way that it's always been, you know?

And so nobody kind of views it as wrong. That's just how it is. You know? I think there's still a lot of people in Mexico that think that there's no racism in Mexico, that like, you can't be racist if you're Mexican. And with my friends too, you know, I think that for, for a while my group of friends were people who were pursuing the same version of the American Dream that I was. You know, we were all, like, first-gen college students trying to just get into the corporate world and have a nice 401k. And you know, we were willing to kind of overlook all of these aggressions in the workplace because we were in, you know, we were just so grateful that we were in there.

And I think that a lot of my friends have experienced similar things that I have and have moved away from those spaces. But then there are some other friends that, that don't recognize it. They still think that this is a country of white people and for white people and that we should just be grateful that we're here. And I certainly am not so close to those people anymore, to those friends anymore. Uh, so it's definitely changed a lot of things for me.

[00:25:36] Chris Duffy:
Do you have suggestions for how to speak with more resistant relatives or, or with immigrants that are just starting their journey, or, or maybe even what to watch out for when someone's having those conversations?

[00:25:45] Julissa Arce:
Like, the best example I can think about is with my mom, right? As I said, you know, my mom knows what she knows. She knows what she was taught, right?From her mom, from her grandma, the sort of same ideas. And so I never approached things with my mom as like, “You are wrong. You don't know anything.” Right? It's more about, like, “Have you considered this? Have you thought about this? Where do you think that comes from? You know, like this thing you're saying about marrying someone lighter-skinned. Like, first of all, my dad was really dark, so it's like you didn't follow that advice, you know? Like, oh, what happened?” So I was just asking, like, a lot of questions, I think.

And you know, I also don't see it as my job to, like, change people's minds, but when I do go into these conversations, I do really try to approach them from a place of curiosity and trying to share what it is that I've learned and ask a lot of questions about where do the ideas that other people have, where have they come from? And hopefully, people will come around, I guess.

[00:26:46] Chris Duffy:
What are some of the practical things that listeners can do to celebrate themselves, their culture, and their history?

[00:26:51] Julissa Arce:
I think people can pick up some books by revisionist historians that are telling a more complete version of the history that we've learned. I really think that’s, like, number one, like that's the place where you can really start. It's really learning the history of your people in this country, right? I think for me, like a very practical, small thing that I did is I started using my whole entire name, right? So before I would just go, like, Julissa Arce and I would let people call me Jule-is-a instead of Jule-lee-sa, and I would let people sort of say Ars instead of Ar-say and not correct them, you know?

Now I put my whole name: Julissa Natzely Arce Raya, like that's my entire name. I feel like it's a gift my parents gave me. Like, they were very thoughtful about my name and what it means, and I wanna reclaim my whole name, right? So, I can't tell you how many people I meet that tell me that they too have gone by a different version of their name so that they don't feel uncomfortable correcting people or you know, how they've never corrected people on how they say their name.

You know, one thing that's happening right now is like, there's so many people going to Mexico City, right? There's like, there's like all these articles and things about gentrification in Mexico City and it's like Americans gentrifying Mexico City. And some of those Americans are Mexican-Americans, right? That they're going to Mexico City and going to the pyramids and going to Frida Kahlo's house and you know, staying in condesa. And maybe they feel like “This is me reconnecting to my culture, you know, and like, I love Mexico so much. Like, I love going to Pujol and Quintonil and like, all these fancy restaurants.”

And it's like, that's great. You know, I'm glad. I, I, I want more people to go back to Mexico and reconnect with the culture, but to understand that just that is not the culture. You know, just going to Frida Kahlo's house and going to the pyramids and going to Pujol is not the only thing you need to do to reconnect with your culture and to really reclaim your roots. There's so much more than that.

[00:28:59] Chris Duffy:
For people who are listening and, and they're really sold on this idea of pushing back against assimilation and instead embracing culture and their own history, but they also feel kind of out of place maybe because they don't speak the language or they feel disconnected from the history.

I know that's something that you've thought about and talked about a lot of how when you get two or three generations away, sometimes you're caught between worlds or you can feel like that. What, what advice do you have for people who are feeling that?

[00:29:29] Julissa Arce:
So Spanish is a big subject right in, in Latino culture, and I'm sure in other cultures, their sort of language is probably, is probably a, a, a big subject because certainly for me, knowing how to speak Spanish and being able to speak Spanish does give me a certain connection to the culture.

But I also think that understanding why so many Latinos don't speak Spanish can also give you a connection to the culture, right? Like, there’s a lot of Latinos that don't speak Spanish because Spanish was banned from being spoken in, in classrooms. You know, bilingual education programs now, are sort of very trendy, but for a long time it was when a person is trying to learn English, it's very looked down upon, right?

And so there's sort of these forces and these rules of the past that really pushed people away from Spanish. I think just kind of even having an understanding of where that comes from gives you a different connection to the culture and, and listen, like it's, it's a journey for all of us.

For me still today, having gone through what I've been through, having researched the things that I've researched, having written this book, there are still times when I feel like I have so much more work still to do.

[00:30:49] Chris Duffy:
Well, thank you so much for talking. I'm such a fan of you and your work and I, I'm really glad that you made the time to be here. Thank you.

[00:30:54] Julissa Arce:
Thank you so much.

[00:31:01] Chris Duffy:
That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you to today's guest, Julissa Arce. Her books are called, You Sound like a White Girl, Someone like Me, and My Underground American Dream. I am your host Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and information about my live comedy shows at chrisduffycomedy.com.

How to Be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by Anna Phelan, Whitney Pennington Rodgers, and Jimmy Gutierrez. Every episode of our show is professionally fact-checked. This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Erica Yuen. On the PRX side, our show is put together by Morgan Flannery, Rosalyn Tordesillas, and Jocelyn Gonzales.

And of course, thanks to you for listening to our show and making this all possible. We will be back next week with even more episodes of How to Be a Better Human.