The return-to-work toolbox (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
Welcome to Fixable. I'm Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[00:00:06] Frances Frei:
And I'm Frances Frei. I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School, and I'm your wife.

[00:00:10] Anne Morriss:
We believe that meaningful change happens fast, anything is fixable, and solutions are often just one brave conversation away.

[00:00:19] Frances Frei:
Who do we have today, Anne?

[00:00:20] Anne Morriss:
Frances, today we have a caller named Wren, and as usual, we're going to use a pseudonym to protect her anonymity. Wren has a really interesting problem for us, and I'm going to let her, uh, tell it in her own words.

[00:00:34] Wren:
Hi, I'm Wren, and I work as a finance director at a fintech company. When being pregnant with my second son, I was promoted to a finance director position, a position that I've been wanting all my life.

And after doing the job for just three months, I then went on long term maternity leave, longer than I anticipated because my son was very sick. It is now four months off until I'm due to go back. The team I'm going back to are not recognizable in the slightest. Um, I've missed so much with the business and kind of what they've been doing. And I would just like to get some help and guidance on how I can get my head back into everything and do the best job possible.

[00:01:18] Anne Morriss:
Frances, what's your reaction?

[00:01:20] Frances Frei:
Uh, this sounds like the perfect storm. I'm sure there are better ways of saying it, but what a collision of externalities.

[00:01:25] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s a lot. It’s a steep mountain to climb. So Frances, I've been thinking about my parental leave, as we shepherded our, our firstborn into the world, which was very exciting moment in our family's life. And I was also thinking about how he had some health complications that threw us for a loop. And it took me a good 12 to 18 months, maybe even more, to get my own footing under me.

[00:02:00] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:02:00] Anne Morriss:
And to be ready to go back out in the world in any way at all. So I'm quite impressed that our caller is ready to go. And I, I was remembering that it, I couldn't even figure out how to interview for a job at that point. I don’t—

[00:02:18] Frances Frei:
I remember that so well.

[00:02:20] Anne Morriss:
I just, I had a lot of clarity that I needed to go back to work, that it was psychically important to me to go back to work. And I also had a lot of clarity that just from an executive function standpoint, getting from A to B to C to reenter a workplace was beyond me.

[00:02:39] Frances Frei:
I feel like I'm, I, I had the best seat on what, what maternity, like what it does. Because I got to watch what it did to you, and it didn't scramble me like it scrambled you, but I, I got to see it, and even me going back to class, not having been scrambled inside, it was hard for me by simply the distraction of it all and the emotional rollercoaster.

[00:03:04] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:03:04] Frances Frei:
But I mostly just was so focused on you and didn't want to go back because I didn't want to leave you alone.

[00:03:11] Anne Morriss:
And I want to, I want to push on the word scramble because I want to, in solidarity with my family, fellow pregnant people of the world—

[00:03:20] Frances Frei:
Yeah, yeah. No, scrambled's not right. Boiled? No.

[00:03:23] Anne Morriss:
Fried?

[00:03:24] Frances Frei:
Poached? Poached.

[00:03:25] Anne Morriss:
Um, it was, it was particularly intense for us. We were transitioning into being parents.

[00:03:30] Frances Frei:
Oh, gosh.

[00:03:31] Anne Morriss:
Uh, but also being parents of a, of a sick kiddo who needed extra attention and medical care. And that, it, it took a while to get our sea legs under us, for sure.

[00:03:44] Frances Frei:
Yeah. I mean, I measure that in years.

[00:03:45] Anne Morriss:
By the way, I also want to state for the record that he is doing amazing.

[00:03:50] Frances Frei:
Oh my gosh. He is.

[00:03:51] Anne Morriss:
He is thriving, and, and we got very lucky in many ways that he gets to grow out of the impact of this condition.

[00:03:59] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:03:59] Anne Morriss:
But the early years are tricky.

[00:04:02] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:04:02] Anne Morriss:
And that's when we were negotiating all of these issues, including what do our public lives look like when our private lives have some unexpected complexity?

[00:04:12] Frances Frei:
Hell.

[00:04:12] Anne Morriss:
And so I'm really looking forward to having this conversation with our caller and seeing if any of that learning and insight is, is going to be useful to her.

[00:04:37] Wren:
Oh, this is so exciting.

[00:04:38] Anne Morriss:
I know, this is very exciting. Wren, welcome to Fixable.

[00:04:423] Wren:
Hello. Thank you for having me.

[00:04:44] Anne Morriss:
It’s, it’s our privilege. So let's just start with, tell us about the work you do.

[00:04:50] Wren:
So, where do I start? I wear lots of different hats. So first and foremost, I'm a mum to two children. One is seven and the other one is 15 months. And as a day job, as in my career, um, I'm finance director for a major corporation in the fintech industry, so very high technological, uh, male-dominated kind of environment. So I got promoted there to FD while I was pregnant with my second child, actually, which is pretty amazing.

[00:05:22] Anne Morriss:
Big job.

[00:05:22] Wren:
Yeah, it's, it's a great job, but the challenge is, like, motherhood has been quite difficult, uh, over the last 18 months because my son, who I had in January 2022, um, he has a life threatening condition which, uh, we are constantly battling every day.

I mean, we, we almost lost him twice in one night at the age of five weeks. One in the hospital, once in the ambulance. So, life has been a massive whirlwind. And, um, I was supposed to go back to work, uh, at nine months, but because of the situation, um, I've had extended leave. So I'm due to go back a couple of months from now. Um, it's like a new challenge. It's, it's not how I thought it would be, but we are where we are. So that's kind of what I’m doing.

[00:06:11] Anne Morriss:
Well, first of all, I'm so sorry. You've been on this ride with your child's health. We have a little bit of experience with that; I used to describe it as falling through the looking glass—

[00:06:24] Wren:
Exactly that.

[00:06:27] Anne Morriss:
Uh, into this whole, whole other universe. What are you most excited about returning to in the workplace?

[00:06:34] Wren:
The biggest thing that I'm looking forward to and excited about the most is having some kind of escape from four walls and just kind of going out into the office, having adult conversation, having a coffee without having to be worrying about lockdown or worrying about, you know, being at home and doing dinner and lunch for kids or kids or whatever it is.

It's just, it's just that kind of normality because that's the kind of environment that I thrive in the most. So I'm, I'm very much about kind of, um, you know, going from meeting to meeting and kind of bash, bash, bash, you know, like rush, rush, rush, like corporate environment excites me.

[00:07:13] Anne Morriss:
And it sounds like using parts of yourself that you haven't used for the last three years.

[00:07:18] Wren:
Yeah, precisely.

[00:07:20] Anne Morriss:
So tell us about the problem we can help you fix today.

[00:07:23] Wren:
Um, so when it comes to going back to work, um, I've got a seven year old, so I have experienced having a baby and then going back to work after nine months, and it's worked, and it's been great going back to work after 18 months with a child who… I don't know what his future holds. Um, and going back into a job that is so senior, so much more senior than what I was doing at the time of my first child. Um, and going back after 18 months, so it's like being hit across the head three times. Um, I kind of don't know what to expect. And my confident powerful self is saying, “Don't worry, you've got this.” Um, but I want to go back and go back with a bang and make sure that I'm, you know, everyone's like, “Yes, Wren's back. This is good.”

[00:08:14] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna deliberately hit on a couple of notes here because we're talking to you, but we're also going to be talking to your subconscious here. What could go, what could go really right in this scenario? What's the best case scenario?

[00:08:30] Wren:
The best case scenario is we just have another appointment at the hospital, and my son's fine. Then I like, yes.

[00:08:39] Anne Morriss:
A miracle cure.

[00:08:41] Wren:
Yeah, yeah, because I'll be able to be the happiest person on earth. And then I could just go back to living a normal life and thriving in at work.

[00:08:50] Anne Morriss:
Um, what's the best case scenario at work? Because the, the miracle cure, which trust us, we know what that feels like to pray for it, um, is fundamentally out of your control.

[00:09:03] Wren:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:04] Anne Morriss:
Um, and so the challenge is going to be integrating and accepting reality as it is. And believe me, we will be praying for a miracle cure for your child as well. If we hold that con—if we hold his health constant, um, and you go back to work, tell us about what you want to feel like when you get there.

[00:09:30] Wren:
Um, I want to feel confident. I think that's the first thing. Um, sometimes some of the projects that we work on at work can be pretty mind boggling. It takes a while to, like, read through the contracts and really get your head round what's going on here and what are we dealing with and when you're making decisions, what are the pros, what are the cons, what are the costs, and you know, whatever the big guys want to see in their analysis or whatever they've asked for. There’s a lot to consider.

Yeah, I just want to feel empowered and feel like I’m, I can do this. Like, I can do this. I did this before. Yes, life was different then, but it's the same job. It's the same company. It's the same sort of stuff. It's just trying to get back into that mode of understanding things and not being too hard on myself if maybe perhaps I'm not understanding it, especially at the beginning because I've only just come back.

[00:10:21] Anne Morriss:
I love it. That makes me think of the great C words of leadership: compassion, confidence, capacity. Um, Frances—

[00:10:32] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:10:32] Anne Morriss:
Summarize where we are. Let's get you in here.

[00:10:35] Frances Frei:
So… Um, before I can really give it a summary, what are the added responsibilities that come with the promotion?

[00:10:43] Wren:
Yeah, sure. Um, so yes, there is managing more people, um, it's not a huge, huge team. It’s, I would say, probably about five people in total. So it's a nice, it's a nice number. Actually manageable. It's not like 10s, 20s, or anything like that. Um, the, the reporting line is different. So there is a reporting line to the CFO. Um, and a CFO doesn't want to see detail. It wants to just say, “Right, okay, what are we dealing with? And what's the decision? What do you think? And why?”

[00:11:13] Frances Frei:
Okay.

[00:11:13] Wren:
And that's it. So things need to be quick. The turnaround needs to be quick.

[00:11:18] Frances Frei:
Okay. And before the promotion, were you one of the five people and now you're overseeing the five people, is that how it is?

[00:11:26] Wren:
Yeah, that's correct.

[00:11:27] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Okay. So, I think that a very meaningful part of what's different is, um, is that it's now no longer just you. And I, I actually think things are going to be quite different when you go back. Even if we take away the other aspects, because you're going from an individual contributor to the manager of this team and the leader.

[00:11:51] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I mean, the first place in my, in hearing your story, Wren, even before having the pleasure of talking to you about it, the, the first place my head went was, um, the framing on this is not that you're returning to work. The framing on this is that you're starting a new job.

[00:12:09] Wren:
Yeah.

[00:12:09] Anne Morriss:
Um, and so when we try on that new frame, what, what do we know about how to start a new job well? I mean, there's a book I love to recommend to people by Michael Watkins called The First 90 Days. And it, it has kind of a male lens to it, um, but I find that it's very, it's very useful. So it's a place to start in how can I be most effective in getting where I want to go in 90 days. And I love that time period.

[00:12:43] Wren:
Yes.

[00:12:43] Anne Morriss:
But giving yourself a reasonable… you’re not going to feel those magical feelings of, uh, confidence and capacity in the first seven days back, you know, or even the first 30, you know, but 90 days—

[00:13:00] Wren Days:
90 days.

[00:13:00] Anne Morriss:
—is a reasonable expectation to feel like you have your sea legs in this role.

[00:13:04] Frances Frei:
Yeah, yeah.

[00:13:05] Wren:
Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think one of the things that's interesting that you've touched on is actually, it's about expectation, isn't it? Having realistic expectations of yourself. So to your point about, you know, you're not going to feel all these things in the first seven days. Absolutely correct.

And that's something I need to keep reminding myself because I do put a lot of pressure on myself. I go full throttle. Like if I've got a goal, that's it. That's my goal. Like, I am so dead focused on achieving something and running for it. And sometimes, I need to remind myself to slow down and not burn myself out.

[00:13:39] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Um, there's another expectation I want to blow up because the, the challenge of living a life with a child with a chronic disease is that there is a relentless level of pressure and anxiety that just doesn't go away.

[00:13:59] Wren:
Mm-hm.

[00:13:59] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:13:59] Anne Morriss:
And I think that's, that's really what's surprised us is is we approached it as a sprint, as a problem to be solved which is how we had approached previous challenges.

[00:14:08] Wren:
Yes.

[00:14:08] Anne Morriss:
And in fact, it was this entirely different entity, which I think does relate to the other assumption I want to blow up, which is that this is somehow about returning to Wren circa 2021. You are a new person.

[00:14:28] Wren:
Yes.

[00:14:28] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:14:29] Anne Morriss:
And this whole new person is starting this whole new job and it's gonna be this challenging but also exciting and interesting and exhilarating potentially process of discovering that combination. These are two very new variables that you have never taken for a test drive in the workplace before.

[00:14:54] Wren:
No. No, that's true.

[00:14:56] Anne Morriss:
I suspect that it's part of this chapter is gonna be figuring out what that means about your new relationship with work. To Frances' point, the exciting part of this new relationship is that—

[00:15:13] Frances Frei:
It's super exciting.

[00:15:14] Anne Morriss:
You are not the only one doing the work in this new job. You have all these other people, which is what makes management really fun and interesting is that it's just not, it’s no longer about how hard Wren is willing to work to get the job done. It's also about how to unleash these other extraordinary humans to get the work done.

[00:15:37] Wren:
Yeah, delegating and things like that effectively. Yeah.

[00:15:40] Frances Frei:
Um, the beautiful thing about leading a team is that to bring out the best in them also gives you flexibility because the more they can do on their own, the more you can respond to the variability of your children's needs.

So when your team is cooking, it won't matter that you have to go and take two days off, go spend time in the hospital, be texting in the middle of the night. If you were an individual contributor, it would definitely matter. So you're going to benefit from the flexibility about having a high performing team. And the high performing team is going to benefit by your, um, loving desire to throw them in the deep end.

[00:16:28] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I have some questions about the new Wren, which you may not be able to answer yet because we haven't, we haven't found it. But based on what you know already about new Wren, what do you think she is going to need to succeed wildly in this new job?

[00:16:43] Frances Frei:
Great.

[00:16:45] Anne Morriss:
Frances mentioned some flexibility?

[00:16:49] Wren:
I think flexibility is definitely on the list, maybe top because as you said Frances, you know, there will be hospital appointments. I mean if this thing still continues, um, you know, I will need that time to go to the hospital. Um, I plan on working from home quite a lot still because there's medications that need to be given to my son around the clock, and only I or my husband or my mother can give those medications.

I think support in general from my boss just, you know, for example, if I was to make a mistake and we were all human. You know, mistakes happen, you know, you're dealing with numbers, you're dealing with contracts, you're dealing with lots of things, and lots of things have happened to my brain over the last 18 months.

Um, so there will be an element of compassion and understanding needed from my boss towards me if something was to get missed or something wasn't done exactly the way he wanted it done. Because as he can appreciate, it's been very difficult and I just need a bit of time to get my brain back in gear and get myself back into the swing of things. So I think flexibility and understanding are going to be the two main things, I would say.

[00:18:05] Anne Morriss:
Have you thought through, at this point, how you are planning to read the team into your situation at home?

[00:18:16] Wren:
Yeah, I think again, going back to principles of, um, honesty and authenticity. I think it's important to be honest and have an honest conversation about that this is what's been going on, and this is kind of where I'm at the moment. And I'm happy, happy to have that conversation with them when I return.

[00:18:30] Anne Morriss:
And so here, if I put on my coach visor; it’s evolved from a hat to a, a visor.

[00:18:38] Frances Frei:
The visor is nice.

[00:18:38] Anne Morriss:
Um, where I would push you on this is to actually elevate your ambition from a conversation about managing expectations with your closest colleagues to partnering with them to create the conditions where you can succeed wildly.

So, you know, it's something like, “Hey team, you know, like let me introduce you to the new Wren. Here's what's a little bit different. Some of you might rev—remember the old Wren. Here's what's a little bit different about the new Wren. Um, here's the way I'm, I need to work in order to contribute fully. And here's the payoff. Like, um, and here's what we're going to build together. And this is, this is what my contribution is going to look like, and now let's talk about what your contribution is going to… I just want you to show up at an emotional frequency that makes this, uh, not just something that we're going to endure together, but something we're going to build together.”

[00:19:46] Wren:
Yeah. No, that's a really interesting way of looking at it because you are doing it together essentially. So it, it takes away the me and them.

[00:19:54] Frances Frei:
I also like thinking about if there's someone else leading a team and you're one of the individual contributors versus you're leading the team, how much more can the team produce and create, and, um, with you leading it versus you being an individual contributor? And I want you to really get in touch with that.

[00:20:14] Anne Morriss:
I, I, I love where you're going Frances, because that's what I'm getting stuck on. Everyone's life is complicated, right?

[00:20:22] Wren:
Mm. Yeah.

[00:20:22] Anne Morriss:
Everyone has constraints. The opportunity that life has presented you is your constraints are now really clear. And you were operating in a world with no constraints. Old Wren didn't think that she had anything—

[00:20:37] Wren:
Yeah. Not today.

[00:20:37] Anne Morriss:
—in the way of her giving everything to work. And now life has presented you with constraints and trade offs. What we know, we have spent our careers thinking about this, what we know about trade offs is when you are deliberate and intentional about them, you can go faster and further into places you never even dreamed was possible.

But you have to put them on the table and you have to design for them and you have to be deliberate about the costs and benefits here. The benefits of working within New Wren's new constraints is you are going to be a kick-ass boss.

[00:21:17] Frances Frei:
Oh my gosh.

[00:21:17] Anne Morriss:
And one of the reasons is the people around you on your team are also going to be able to show up as three dimensional human beings with limitations in their own lives. And you're gonna make it possible for them to talk about the, the, the parent whose care they are now in charge of, uh, and their own kid who, who's got, and then their own mental health issues that they have to work around for you to get 110 percent of them.

[00:21:42] Wren:
Mm. It’s just so refreshing to hear, you know, you guys talk about this in a completely different light. I mean, what's in my head is in my head. Um, and then I'm sharing that with you, but then to hear you guys kind of talk back and give your kind of perspective. It's, it's, it means a lot. It's definitely things that I actually didn't even think about. And as you're speaking, I'm like, “Whoa, really? Okay.” Actually, that's not, you know, to say that I would add more value by managing a team than as an individual contributor, I never really thought, thought of it like that.

[00:22:17] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:22:17] Anne Morriss:
And so, Wren, what feels new to you in this way of thinking?

[00:22:22] Wren:
You know, I've done loads of mentoring things here, and I've done loads of talks and conferences and things, and all of it is to help others. And I’ve never charged for it or anything. Um, and... I feel that in this particular situation, I need to not only look at this as a hobby, but look at this as a way of life, especially in my job, as you mentioned. With not being an individual contributor anymore, but more of a, allowing my team to help support what I need doing by nurturing them and getting the best out of them.

[00:22:58] Anne Morriss:
It's so liberating to not be about you.

[00:23:02] Wren:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:04] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Um, so let's get super practical. It's your first week on the new job. I'm not going to say back on the job.

[00:23:12] Wren:
Yeah.

[00:23:12] Anne Morriss:
It’s, it's new Wren's first week in her new job. Tell us, uh, what do you think you're gonna do differently based on this conversation? We'll make it not the first week, but the first month.

[00:23:24] Wren:
Yeah, I’m definitely going to be less hard on myself. The three Cs, the compassion, the capacity, and, um, what was the other one? Compassion capacity and…?

[00:23:36] Anne Morriss:
Confidence.

[00:23:38] Wren:
Confidence. Yeah, I'm definitely going to give myself a little bit of a break and not be too hard on myself and have a voice in the back of my mind that tells me that, “Wren, you don't have to do it all today. You don't have to do it all now. You don't have to know it all now. It's okay not to know something, but it’ll happen.”

[00:23:55] Anne Morriss:
I'm going to also push you to think about in advance how you want to bring both your boss and your team along on what you are going to need to be successful in this role. What new Wren is going to need.

[00:24:14] Wren:
Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah, they need to, they want to know, and, and for my sanity, they need to know. So yeah, I definitely would do that.

[00:24:19] Anne Morriss:
And for your success.

[00:24:23] Wren:
Yeah.

[00:24:23] Anne Morriss:
Because we're not just enduring. New Wren is gonna kick ass.

[00:24:28] Frances Frei:
Is gonna add a zero. She’s gonna add a zero, and she wouldn't be able to do it without a team. And so if I was going to add anything to the second week, if the first week was about you, I would have the second week be almost exclusively about your team.

[00:24:41] Wren:
Yeah.

[00:24:21] Frances Frei:
And do, and all of the things that you had for you, make sure you do that with the team because the team is your ability to reach higher than you ever could have before.

[00:24:56] Wren:
Yeah. They’re going to help me make that happen. They're going to help make that possible. So, yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:01] Anne Morriss:
So, Wren, how are you feeling now about going back to work?

[00:25:06] Wren:
I feel, uh, I, I, you guys have given me so much to think about in, in a good way. So I feel like I have more resources in my toolbox now to build a plan, and just know that there is the practical side, which is taking all of the advice and the planning and just making sure I've got it all in my head, what I need to remind myself of. And then there's the whole other side, which is things will fall into place eventually because life always finds a way.

[00:25:34] Anne Morriss:
It works out. It works out.

[00:25:38] Wren:
Yeah. Eventually.

[00:25:38] Anne Morriss:
You seem, you seem a little bit lighter to us. Is that accurate?

[00:25:45] Wren:
Yeah, I do feel. It's, it's so much nicer to talk it through with someone and especially people like yourselves who are just so much more experienced than I am. So, um, no, thank you so much.

[00:25:55] Anne Morriss:
It's our pleasure. We are, we are big fans.

[00:25:59] Frances Frei:
Yeah, we're rooting, we're rooting for you and, um, we stay on the team. So we would love to hear how things go.

[00:26:07] Wren:
Thank you.

[00:26:22] Anne Morriss:
What are you thinking about, my love?

[00:26:24] Frances Frei:
Oh, you know, the, if I was going to... helicopter up, as an awesome individual contributor, it was all about you in order to serve people above you.

[00:26:36] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:26:36] Frances Frei:
And manager, it's all about you only insofar as to serve the people below you. And I think that is a, um, it's not what top individual contributors think. It's why we see, you know, some of the top players may not make good coaches. They can, but in general, I think it is, it's a mindset shift that is non trivial. Um, but it's going to add a zero. And by that we mean it's going from one to ten or ten to a hundred, a hundred to a thousand. Adding a zero means it's going to be explosive.

[00:27:14] Anne Morriss:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think intr—really, yeah, what’s really powerful about the story is that that transition, universal, challenging, we see it everywhere, is also coinciding with this point in her life where diagnosis with—

[00:27:32] Frances Frei:
Oh, yeah.

[00:27:33] Anne Morriss:
And it can be many other things, but makes it very clear that uh, gravity applies.

[00:27:41] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:42] Anne Morriss:
Even to the superstars. And I think the superstars can get seduced into thinking that, gravity does not apply to us.

[00:27:51] Frances Frei:
We can just fly.

[00:27:52] Anne Morriss:
We can excel everywhere. But I think in situations like this, you are forced to confront it. And so the combination of that transition, the transition to being a manager, leader, and then also recognizing that there are tradeoffs and limitations, but on the other side of those, there's, there's a different kind of excellence. All of that is happening at once. And I think it's a huge opportunity for both growth and impact for Wren.

[00:28:22] Frances Frei:
You know, one of the things I hope we get to discuss on a future episode is the, is that acknowledging and honoring trade offs, uh, is rocket fuel.

[00:28:30] Anne Morriss:
Yes. We're going to have to find a way to discuss that because the alternative is to get lost in the delusion that we can be great at everything, which reliably…

[00:28:40] Frances Frei:
Leads to exhausted mediocrity, exhausted mediocrity.

[00:28:44] Anne Morriss:
And when we use that phrase, it sometimes it takes people's breath away because it describes exactly—

[00:28:50] Frances Frei:
Yeah, exactly where they feel. Yeah.

[00:28:51] Anne Morriss:
When and what the whole organization feels.

[00:28:54] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:28:55] Anne Morriss:
All right. That's our show. Frances, read us out.

[00:28:59] Frances Frei:
Thanks for listening, everyone. We would love to hear from you as well. If you want to figure out your workplace problem together, please get in touch.You can email [email protected] or call 234 FIXABLE. That's 234-349-2253.

[00:29:18] Anne Morriss:
Thanks for listening, everyone.

[00:29:24] Frances Frei:
Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Frances Frei.

[00:29:29] Anne Morriss:
And me, Anne Morriss. This episode was produced by Isabel Carter. Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Lidia Jean Kott, Sarah Nics, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, Banban Cheng, and Roxanne Hai Lash. Jake Gorski is our mix engineer.

[00:29:49] Frances Frei:
We'll be bringing you new episodes of Fixable every week, so please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:29:55] Anne Morriss:
And one more thing, if you can please take a second to leave us a review. We love hearing from our listeners, particularly when they have nice things to say about us.